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Podcast Episode

059 - Making Sense of Language Messes with Abby Covert

April 2024
|
62 Minutes
Abby Covert
Information Architect, Writer, Community Organizer
and Certified OOUXer
Abby Covert
Information Architect, Writer, Community Organizer

Abby Covert is an information architect, writer and community organizer with two decades of experience helping people make sense of messes. In this episode of the podcast, Sophia and Abby talk about letting go of perfectionism in dealing with tech debt, the power of language and why words are hard, plus why diagramming is a high order skill.

FYI: This is an affiliate link (we earn a small kickback if you buy).

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Abby Covert is the author of the 2014 book, How to Make Sense of Any Mess, "a book to teach IA to everybody," and more recently, Stuck, Diagrams Help, a book for teaching the art of diagramming.

‍

LINKS:

⁠Connect with Abby on LinkedIn⁠.

⁠Keep up with Abby on her website⁠.

Purchase Abby's book, ⁠How to Make Sense of Any Mess⁠.

Purchase Abby's book, ⁠Stuck, Diagrams Help⁠.

⁠Sign up for the OOUX for AI & AI for OOUX meetup, May 16, 2024 at 3:00PM⁠.

Upgrade your career with ⁠The Self-Paced OOUX Masterclass⁠!

Continue the conversation on the OOUX Forum!

‍

Episode Transcript

Subscribe to OOUX Podcast

Every 2-3 Thursdays

A dive into the weeds on UX systems, information architecture, human psychology, data wrangling, structured content, UX process, and above all simplifying the complex.

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Author of Living in Information and host of The Informed Life podcast
Andy Welfle
Co-author of Writing is Designing
and Certified OOUXer
Andy Welfle
Co-author of Writing is Designing
Michael Metts
Co-author of Writing is Designing
and Certified OOUXer
Michael Metts
Co-author of Writing is Designing
Ahren Lehnert
Sr. Taxonomist at Synaptica
and Certified OOUXer
Ahren Lehnert
Sr. Taxonomist at Synaptica
Bob Kasenchak
Sr. Taxonomist at Synaptica
and Certified OOUXer
Bob Kasenchak
Sr. Taxonomist at Synaptica
Jeremy Keith
Author of Resilient Web Design and co-founder of Clearleft
and Certified OOUXer
Jeremy Keith
Author of Resilient Web Design and co-founder of Clearleft
Rachel Price
Sr. Information Architect at Microsoft
and Certified OOUXer
Rachel Price
Sr. Information Architect at Microsoft
Sarah Barrett
Principal IA Manager at Microsoft
and Certified OOUXer
Sarah Barrett
Principal IA Manager at Microsoft
Ren Pope
Sr. Staff Data Modeler and Ontologist at Etsy
and Certified OOUXer
Ren Pope
Sr. Staff Data Modeler and Ontologist at Etsy
Emmet Connolly
Director of Product Design at Intercom
and Certified OOUXer
Emmet Connolly
Director of Product Design at Intercom
John Collins
Head of Content & Communications at Ramp
and Certified OOUXer
John Collins
Head of Content & Communications at Ramp
Andrew Hinton
Author of Understanding Context
and Certified OOUXer
Andrew Hinton
Author of Understanding Context
Cornel Hillmann
Author of Unreal for Mobile and Standalone VR and owner of STUDIO.CGARTIST.COM
and Certified OOUXer
Cornel Hillmann
Author of Unreal for Mobile and Standalone VR and owner of STUDIO.CGARTIST.COM
Joseph Duteil
UX Lead at Whitespace Sàrl
and Certified OOUXer
Joseph Duteil
UX Lead at Whitespace Sàrl
Ben Callahan
Founder of Sparkbox
and Certified OOUXer
Ben Callahan
Founder of Sparkbox
Carrie Hane
Co-author of Designing Connected Content
and Certified OOUXer
Carrie Hane
Co-author of Designing Connected Content
Dan Mall
Founder of SuperFriendly and Design System University
and Certified OOUXer
Dan Mall
Founder of SuperFriendly and Design System University
Miriam Suzanne
Co-founder at Oddbird and an Invited Expert with the W3C
and Certified OOUXer
Miriam Suzanne
Co-founder at Oddbird and an Invited Expert with the W3C
Brad Frost
Author of Atomic Design and creator of Pattern Lab
and Certified OOUXer
Brad Frost
Author of Atomic Design and creator of Pattern Lab
Marcelo Brasileiro
Product Designer at ArcTouch
and Certified OOUXer
Marcelo Brasileiro
Product Designer at ArcTouch
Jacob Berchem
Object-Oriented Oracle 🔮 at Fetch Rewards
and Certified OOUXer
Jacob Berchem
Object-Oriented Oracle 🔮 at Fetch Rewards
Merrylou Spicciani
and Certified OOUXer
Merrylou Spicciani
Sybil Shearin
Product Designer, Duo Security at Cisco
and Certified OOUXer
Sybil Shearin
Product Designer, Duo Security at Cisco
Nancy Vesley
UX Architect & Designer at Pitney Bowes
and Certified OOUXer
Nancy Vesley
UX Architect & Designer at Pitney Bowes
Alexis King
UX Designer at 42Layers
and Certified OOUXer
Alexis King
UX Designer at 42Layers
Crystal Cederstrom
UX Design Lead for CreditWise @ Capital One
and Certified OOUXer
Crystal Cederstrom
UX Design Lead for CreditWise @ Capital One
Kieran Anderson
UX Designer
and Certified OOUXer
Kieran Anderson
UX Designer
Nikki Davis
Lead Designer
and Certified OOUXer
Nikki Davis
Lead Designer
Maria Garcia
UX Architect at athenahealth
and Certified OOUXer
Maria Garcia
UX Architect at athenahealth
Kelsey Grant
Lead UX Designer
and Certified OOUXer
Kelsey Grant
Lead UX Designer
Lindsey Claxton
UX Designer
and Certified OOUXer
Lindsey Claxton
UX Designer
Andrea Neuhoff
Senior Product Designer
and Certified OOUXer
Andrea Neuhoff
Senior Product Designer
Jess Ryan
Senior Designer, Xfinity Frontline Products
and Certified OOUXer
Jess Ryan
Senior Designer, Xfinity Frontline Products
Kristin Ouellette Muskat
Design Research Lead at Coforma.io
and Certified OOUXer
Kristin Ouellette Muskat
Design Research Lead at Coforma.io
Tara Kimura
Content Designer at the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation
and Certified OOUXer
Tara Kimura
Content Designer at the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation
Fredy Pascal
UX Strategist @ BNP Paribas
and Certified OOUXer
Fredy Pascal
UX Strategist @ BNP Paribas
Dawson Diment
User Experience Designer at Access52
and Certified OOUXer
Dawson Diment
User Experience Designer at Access52
Michaela Hoffman
Frontend Designer & Developer
and Certified OOUXer
Michaela Hoffman
Frontend Designer & Developer
Mary Mahling Carns
Lead Innovator at Halftank Studio
and Certified OOUXer
Mary Mahling Carns
Lead Innovator at Halftank Studio
Mike Vogel
User Experience Engineer at Disney
and Certified OOUXer
Mike Vogel
User Experience Engineer at Disney
Zainab Kashim
Product Designer
and Certified OOUXer
Zainab Kashim
Product Designer
Charlie Parker
Senior Manager of Global Digital Strategy at Kabam
and Certified OOUXer
Charlie Parker
Senior Manager of Global Digital Strategy at Kabam
Shivanand Reddy Yerva
UX Design Lead
and Certified OOUXer
Shivanand Reddy Yerva
UX Design Lead
Cassie Eddy
UX Designer & Researcher at Health Catalyst
and Certified OOUXer
Cassie Eddy
UX Designer & Researcher at Health Catalyst
Marina Ilieva
UX/UI Designer @MotionSoftware
and Certified OOUXer
Marina Ilieva
UX/UI Designer @MotionSoftware
Imogen Levy
Head of Product National Health Service England
and Certified OOUXer
Imogen Levy
Head of Product National Health Service England
Tracey Vantyghem
Information Architect & UX Writer
and Certified OOUXer
Tracey Vantyghem
Information Architect & UX Writer
Gabriela Ospina
Lead Product Designer at Kalepa
and Certified OOUXer
Gabriela Ospina
Lead Product Designer at Kalepa
Rebecca Fuger
Digital Designer at Future US
and Certified OOUXer
Rebecca Fuger
Digital Designer at Future US
Delyanka Sirakova
Product designer
and Certified OOUXer
Delyanka Sirakova
Product designer
Katrina Schwieterman
Content Designer at Facebook
and Certified OOUXer
Katrina Schwieterman
Content Designer at Facebook
David Kau
Product Designer at Apple
and Certified OOUXer
David Kau
Product Designer at Apple
Lance Mattson
Web Development Manager at Roastar, Inc.
and Certified OOUXer
Lance Mattson
Web Development Manager at Roastar, Inc.
Upma Singh
Lead UX at IntelliBridge
and Certified OOUXer
Upma Singh
Lead UX at IntelliBridge
Keith Johnson
Senior User Experience Designer at Truist
and Certified OOUXer
Keith Johnson
Senior User Experience Designer at Truist
Rik Williams
Senior Information Architect at Government Digital Service (GDS)
and Certified OOUXer
Rik Williams
Senior Information Architect at Government Digital Service (GDS)
Mike Moss
UX designer at Google
and Certified OOUXer
Mike Moss
UX designer at Google
Alyanna Agda
Product Designer
and Certified OOUXer
Alyanna Agda
Product Designer
Jonathan Strauss
Creative Lead at Verosint
and Certified OOUXer
Jonathan Strauss
Creative Lead at Verosint
Tristan Campbell
UX Designer
and Certified OOUXer
Tristan Campbell
UX Designer
Brent Schneider
Senior UX Designer at Ad Hoc
and Certified OOUXer
Brent Schneider
Senior UX Designer at Ad Hoc
Kamil Bodura
UX Designer
and Certified OOUXer
Kamil Bodura
UX Designer
Lauren Costa Stone
Sr. Product Designer Construct Connect
and Certified OOUXer
Lauren Costa Stone
Sr. Product Designer Construct Connect
Hope Kanter
UX Strategist
and Certified OOUXer
Hope Kanter
UX Strategist
John Crisp
UX Designer and Front-End Developer at Acivilate
and Certified OOUXer
John Crisp
UX Designer and Front-End Developer at Acivilate
Lindsay Sutton
Freelance UX
and Certified OOUXer
Lindsay Sutton
Freelance UX
Ekaterina Mitova
User Assistance Developer at SAP
and Certified OOUXer
Ekaterina Mitova
User Assistance Developer at SAP
Ellie Booth
Product Researcher at Instagram
and Certified OOUXer
Ellie Booth
Product Researcher at Instagram
Caroline Sober-James
Lead Product Designer at Uniform
and Certified OOUXer
Caroline Sober-James
Lead Product Designer at Uniform
Anne Herron
Product and OOUX Strategist and Mentor
and Certified OOUXer
Anne Herron
Product and OOUX Strategist and Mentor
Zac Zimmerlin
UX Strategist @PropertyShelf, Inc.
and Certified OOUXer
Zac Zimmerlin
UX Strategist @PropertyShelf, Inc.
Amanda Worthington
UX and Web Design Consultant
and Certified OOUXer
Amanda Worthington
UX and Web Design Consultant
Lisa Lombardi
Senior UX/UI Designer at Simple Thread
and Certified OOUXer
Lisa Lombardi
Senior UX/UI Designer at Simple Thread
Mariana Ivanova
Transformational Experience Strategist
and Certified OOUXer
Mariana Ivanova
Transformational Experience Strategist
Cara Schwartz
UX Designer & Strategist at r0g_agency
and Certified OOUXer
Cara Schwartz
UX Designer & Strategist at r0g_agency
Sondra Eby
UX Designer at OddBird
and Certified OOUXer
Sondra Eby
UX Designer at OddBird
Amber Hicks
Product Designer at Lowe's
and Certified OOUXer
Amber Hicks
Product Designer at Lowe's
Tiffany Hsia
UX/UI Designer at UpdatePromise
and Certified OOUXer
Tiffany Hsia
UX/UI Designer at UpdatePromise
Lucy Kates
Product Designer at LinkedIn
and Certified OOUXer
Lucy Kates
Product Designer at LinkedIn
Sean Laughlin
Senior UX Architect @ Lowe's Companies Inc.
and Certified OOUXer
Sean Laughlin
Senior UX Architect @ Lowe's Companies Inc.
Amy White
Freelance UX Designer
and Certified OOUXer
Amy White
Freelance UX Designer
Sophia V. Prater
Founder of Rewired UX, Chief Evangelist for OOUX
and Certified OOUXer
Sophia V. Prater
Founder of Rewired UX, Chief Evangelist for OOUX

Spotlighted Resources

Podcast Episode
NN/g UX Podcast - What is Object-Oriented UX
NN/g UX Podcast - What is Object-Oriented UX
Mar 21, 2025
12:00 pm
EST
|
42 Minutes
|
Sophia V. Prater

UX practitioners often struggle with shifting requirements and increasing product complexity. Object-Oriented UX (OOUX) offers a structured approach to simplify digital products by focusing on core objects rather than pages or screens. Sophia Prater explains on the NN/g UX Podcast how OOUX improves usability, reduces inconsistencies, and streamlines collaboration across teams.

FYI: This is an affiliate link (we earn a small kickback if you buy).

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